Anti-androgens. Androgens include testosterone and other "male" hormones, which can accelerate hair loss in women. Some women who don't respond to minoxidil may benefit from the addition of the anti-androgen drug spironolactone (Aldactone) for treatment of androgenic alopecia. This is especially true for women with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) because they tend to make excess androgens. Doctors will usually prescribe spironolactone together with an oral contraceptive for women of reproductive age. (A woman taking one of these drugs should not become pregnant because they can cause genital abnormalities in a male fetus.) Possible side effects include weight gain, loss of libido, depression, and fatigue.

There’s also a women’s version (Women’s Rogaine Foam) — but a three-month supply costs $22 more online. The only difference between the two products are the instructions; women are instructed to apply once a day instead of twice. If you’re a woman who doesn’t feel like paying extra for marketing, the men’s product will suffice. A cheaper generic version is Kirkland Signature Minoxidil Foam, but with a longer history on the market and more customer testimonials, Rogaine is our first choice.

Each hair develops from a follicle — a narrow pocket in the skin — and goes through three phases of growth. Anagen (A), the active growth phase, lasts two to seven years. Catagen (), the transition phase, lasts about two weeks. During this phase, the hair shaft moves upward toward the skin's surface, and the dermal papilla (the structure that nourishes cells that give rise to hair) begins to separate from the follicle. Telogen (C), the resting phase, lasts around three months and culminates in the shedding of the hair shaft.
Anti-androgens. Androgens include testosterone and other "male" hormones, which can accelerate hair loss in women. Some women who don't respond to minoxidil may benefit from the addition of the anti-androgen drug spironolactone (Aldactone) for treatment of androgenic alopecia. This is especially true for women with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) because they tend to make excess androgens. Doctors will usually prescribe spironolactone together with an oral contraceptive for women of reproductive age. (A woman taking one of these drugs should not become pregnant because they can cause genital abnormalities in a male fetus.) Possible side effects include weight gain, loss of libido, depression, and fatigue.
This blog is great in all the support and understanding it provides, but I had a pretty hard time finding any suggestions for treatments that have actually helped anyone. I’m 22 and my hair has been rapidly shedding over the past 5 months. It’s also gotten thin and brittle. After 2 blood screenings, a dermatologist visit, and a visit to my general practitioner, nothing has improved. The doctor’s told me to wait it out, and that sometimes this “just happens”. They tested my hairs and saw that most of them were in the “resting” telogen phase, and decided I had Telogen Effluvium (TE) for undetermined causes.
A separate study, published in Skin Therapy Letter — a professional reference site for dermatologists — found that women also benefit from using the more potent 5 percent minoxidil treatment. “Patient-reported improvement in hair volume and coverage appears to be greater with 5 percent minoxidil foam,” reads the report. Plus, because the 5 percent treatment is stronger, women only have to apply it once a day to get the same results as they would with the 2 percent treatment applied twice daily.
Susan – I am horrified to read that two of your doctors actually made fun of you… oh my gosh that is awful! I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I am also surprised that your doctors wouldn’t do any bloodwork other than thyroid. What City/ State do you live in? Maybe someone can recommend a doctor in your area that would be more helpful. While many times bloodwork results end up coming back normal there is that possibility that your results would point to something that may be the cause of your hair loss, especially since you say you have no genetic hereditary hair loss in your family. I know you stated your hair is still falling out, but do you see any results from the propecia and mens rogaine? When did your hair loss start?
Conclusion? EAT MORE SEA SALT. DO NOT use table salt…ever. Low-salt and table salt diets contribute to heart attacks, diabetes, polycystic ovaries and obesity. They also promote toxicity and makes your body have an acidic pH, which is not good. That means gatorade is NOT replenishing. It’s better to take a dash of sea salt with water before and/or after exercising.
Hi everyone. I too am suffering with hair loss. I first noticed it 2 years ago, but really took notice this past summer. I am in my early 30s and single which has made things worse. it is hard to date and meet someone when you yourself are not very confident. I do have hope. Aside from strong prayer, I have gotten hope from Dr. Geoffrey Redmond. I am also a physician, so after reading his book which I thought was logical and truthful, I decided to go see him. I have spent countless hours online researching into what would be right for me. Here is some of my insights.

Hair changes about as fast as grass grows, which is to say it’s extraordinarily slow and not visible to anyone checking impatiently in the mirror every day. But during regular follow-up appointments, Harklinikken uses high-tech equipment to photograph and magnify the scalp and count new hairs and active follicles, which motivates users to adhere to the regimen. Too many people give up on treatments like Rogaine and low-level-light devices before they’ve had a chance to work, Dr. Senna said.
The more research i do about hair color and PPD/PTD allergy the more I think that my hair loss is from that… it has been 7 months now and my hair is growing back. I have not had a tight /itchy scalp/ no more feeling as though bugs are crawling in my hair. I have only gone to the Hair loss dermatologist-whom did not think it was hair dye and the regular doctor to check my hormones. I would love to cover my gray – My hair is very dry at the roots. I went to a stylist(hair loss sprecialist) not much info there-master colorist-she did not know about PPD allergy- I do think stopping coloring my hair has help me keep me from lossing more hair and I think some have grown back. I really would like to color, but I am blonde and gray so I don’t think henna will work. I want to tell you about the reaction I had was first itching and then hair loss. Please take note if that happens to you. Then doctors- they said it was probably not the dye.Wrong! They said Hair loss came with age and hormones. I had all of those tested . Then 6 months later I had the salon dye my hair and a bad reaction bumps and itching and hair loss.Again! I still would like to see a doctor that has knows about hair loss or PPD allergy Or a salon. I have not found anyone in Florida. Keep researching. Mostly I have learned from these web sites and I have educated the doctors and the salon. I know it is all about money and that is how these chemicals stay in the products we are using. I did use rogaine before my first reaction. I thought might have had a chemical reaction from the rogaine and hair dye being used in the same week.

I”m sitting here reading all your letters hoping that you’ve helped someone and hoping that you can help me, too. I’m 48 and all my life I’ve been told how beautiful my hair was. I now live in S Florida and within the last couple of years I stopped styling my hair because of the heat and the humidity. I usually wear it in a ponytail (never tight – I’m sure that’s not the problem). About a year ago I noticed athat a lot of hair was on the back of my car seat.I mean A LOT.When I went home to NY I tried to style my hair like I used to and it didn’t work. It just layed there.The more I looked I noticed how thin it was. I came back to Fl and went to a dermatologist who barely looked at me and told me to try rogaine.


Playing around with your haircut can sometimes mask the issue, so talk to your stylist about a style that will add volume and bounce, making hair appear thicker. Simply shifting your part can work wonders, and changing up your color can help, too. Light reflects more off lighter hair, so the color provides less contrast between the hair and the scalp, concealing any empty patches. Additionally, a light perm or wave will give hair more body and make it look thicker, and frequent trims will help prevent breakage.
In cases of severe hair loss, limited success has been achieved by using the corticosteroid medications clobetasol or fluocinonide, corticosteroid injections, or cream. Application of corticosteroid creams to the affected skin is less effective and takes longer to produce results. Steroid injections are commonly used in sites where the areas of hair loss on the head are small or especially where eyebrow hair has been lost. Whether they are effective is uncertain.[citation needed] Some other medications that have been used are minoxidil, Elocon (mometasone) ointment (steroid cream), irritants (anthralin or topical coal tar), and topical immunotherapy ciclosporin, sometimes in different combinations. Topical corticosteroids frequently fail to enter the skin deeply enough to affect the hair bulbs, which are the treatment target,[7] and small lesions typically also regrow spontaneously. Oral corticosteroids may decrease the hair loss, but only for the period during which they are taken, and these medications can cause serious side effects.[7] No one treatment is effective in all cases, and some individuals may show no response to any treatment.[23] Few treatments have been well evaluated. A 2008 meta-analysis of oral and topical corticosteroids, topical ciclosporin, photodynamic therapy, and topical minoxidil showed no benefit of hair growth compared with placebo, especially with regard to long-term benefits.[24]
I’m typing on my iPad so forgive the many mistakes I will make. Thank you so much fornrplying I’ve been wondering where u and Pilar are. And good for u for not visiting. Ive had my moments where I can stay away and eve feel good. I had all of my extensions removed and I think it has affected the way I feel. But bit feels so good for them to be gone! And in all honesty my hair is in even better shape than it was before I got them. My ends are not as wispy as they were. I wore them for two months and they really made me feel better but I could never wash my hair like I wanted and every time my husband touched my head he said when are u going to get these out! Anyway I’ve felt not as good since I had them removed. I like to hibernate but my husband is a social butterfly; I use to be……but we All know how this changes you! Please please let me know how the propecia works. If there are any side affects, etc….like weight gain, moodiness, gloating etc…..there is a lady bin our office on spire and I have been reading the horrific side affects it has and I’m wondering about propecia. I hope u r doing really good. U sounded really strong in ur post and I’m glad. And yes I am deeply depresses over this. I would so get a hair system but my husband is soooooo anti fake anything. Which drives me crazy. I just want to feel better. Have a blessed nite and thank u. Please keep in touch and thank u for replying I felt I would hear from u. Have u spoken to the doc since u ve been on pro?
I am so so grateful and want to thank everyone who has contributed to this forum. I am 52 years old, and in June of this year my Obgyn said it was time for me to get off Birth control pills , as I was getting too old and the estrogen levels would be dangerous at this time. I had been on BCP since the age of 18 with a break from the age of 35-38, and always been under the impression that BC pills might cause hair loss, but was totally unaware that when you came off them that the real deal happened. He just casually said, don’t take them and we will see if you are in menopause. Well I did and 2 months later (mid Aug..) I went straight into menopause, hot flashes all day, night sweats, etc., Then came the shedding, TE, as I am to understand. By mid-September the texture of my hair felt strange and the hair on the right side/back of my hair thinned out considerably, and I was developing a bald patch. Having always had very thin hair that I was always self conscious about (I had to wear a wig as a child, as I had monilethrix an inherited hair disease, which went into remission, but the hair loss caused terrible self esteem issues throughout my teenage years.), I cried my eyes out, then went on a quest to find out who to see. Derm, another ObGyn or endocrinologist? From everything that I had read, everyone went to countless doctors to find a cure. Having dealt with my HMO over the years to get a quality specialist in different areas, I knew I would be bald by the time I found the right doctor. Then I came across this forum, like Hope in Aug, I have spent countless hours on the internet in search of a solution. Thanks to her post and Toni on 7/14/08 and Shelleo, I found my answer. I called Dr. Redmond, in New York, and prayed that I could get an appointment right away. My prayers were answered, and I have an appointment this coming Monday 10/28!! I will be getting his book I the next day or so, as recommended, and truly feel, from what I have read, if anyone can help me, he is the one. Thank you for sharing your stories. I will make sure to check back, so I can, too, possibly help someone else.
Thank you Diana. If you find out any more information, I would appreciate it. I have a dermatologist across the street from the Skin and Cancer Institute. I’m still not sure who to start with, the dermatologist or an endocronologist. I left a message for my PCP today to see if she is comfortable working with female hair loss or if not if she could refer me to someone who specializes in it. I will let you know what I hear back. In the meantime, thanks for your support. Take care.
However, ketoconazole is still not FDA approved for hair loss treatment, which means it cannot be endorsed or marketed as such. Put simply, ketoconazole likely curbs hair loss, but additional research is needed for the FDA to give it approval. While it is safe to use as a supplement to our top picks, we wanted to recommend products with as much scientific backing as possible. So, we stuck with FDA approved minoxidil or FDA cleared laser treatments. But we’ll keep a close eye on products like ketoconazole shampoos and update as new research appears.

I decided to take a vitamin B complex – one a day; I increased my intake of green leafy and orange vegetables and onions, I also throw in a small amount of beef and chicken..i.e. eating lots of stirfries, curries and salads. I also now include in my diet black beans, walnuts and pumpkin seeds. I like spaghetti with red tomato sauce and use parsely and fenugeek . I also started using a product called Hopes Relief (the shampoo and conditioner) – anything else left a burning sensation on my scalp. This helped greatly with healing my scalp redness and reduced the itching. I was seeing an improvement in regrowth. I went to a trichecologist who advised me I have lost 10% of my hair permanently as she could see the scarring and places where the follicles would not grow.

Alopecia areata is thought to be a systemic autoimmune disorder in which the body attacks its own anagen hair follicles and suppresses or stops hair growth.[9] For example, T cell lymphocytes cluster around affected follicles, causing inflammation and subsequent hair loss. It has been suggested that hair follicle in a normal state are kept secure from the immune system, a phenomenon called immune privilege. A breech in this immune privilege state is considered as the cause of alopecia areata.[12] A few cases of babies being born with congenital alopecia areata have been reported.[13]


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Low-level laser light brushes, combs and other devices which are FDA-cleared for both men and women are available without a prescription. Although it’s not clear how the devices work, it’s thought to “stimulate the hair follicles’ energy cells to be more active,” Francis said. They’re also foolproof, telling you when and how far to move the device and they even automatically shut off.

That meant new products like Hims and Keeps were out.Hims and Keeps are relatively new companies that allow you to set up a subscription for hair loss treatments. Both offer finasteride (after an online consultation with a doctor) or 5 percent minoxidil. However, their minoxidil solutions contain propylene glycol, so we cut them from consideration.

Physical stress can also be a cause for hair loss. Any kind of physical trauma surgery, a severe illness, an accident, even the flu can lead to temporary hair loss. This can trigger a type of hair loss known as Telogen effluvium. Hair loss usually gets noticeable 3-6 months after the trauma but once your body recovers, your hair would start growing back again.

Oops forgot to mention also went to Dermatologist who said it is probably just stress related but I really don’t stress ever. I am going back for a scalp biopsy just to be sure nothing going on there. I did lose 12 kg over a 15 week period last year (ending about May – hair loss started in July) but it was done properly eating well and just increasing my exercise level so not sure if this is related other than that I am totally lost as to why I am BALD.


I took accutane for my acne for about five months ( I specifically asked my nurse practitioner if accutane could cause hair loss & after she told me no). I felt optimistic about reducing my acne & breakouts. During the fifth month I noticed shedding. Three months later I have a thinning hair line, had to cut my hair and my self esteem (already lowered by years of acne) is non-existent!
i also have learned that most people are low in their vitamin d levels, which may also contribute to hair loss. i actually had labs done to check for my vitamin d level, by a cardiologist. my heart is fine, thankfully, but she did tell me to take 2000i.u. daily of vitamin d3, specifically. when i researched about it, i found the possible hair connection. so i do take that daily. i will also be buying vitamin b6 and 12 and biotin. and i will research the gut connection because biologically speaking, it makes sense. i will return with another post in a few months and update.
Hello ladies, I’m 32 yrs old and suffering from hair thinning. My hair just seems to have stopped growing. It’s now half of what it used to be 2 years ago! GP did some extensive tests, nothing came out. Might be birth control (on Quasense for 2 years – hair thinning started after that) but can’t stop it (it’s the only BC that’s worked for my very horrible cramps). Anyway, any suggestions for doctors (dermatologists/endo/any other) in San Francisco Bay Area or somewhere in California?
Advecia Hair Loss Vitamins, Alter EGO Energizing/Prevention Shampoo for Hair Loss & Growth, Amazing Jasmine Hair Cream Shampoo/Conditioner, Amplixin Intensive Growth Serum, Amplixin Stimulating Hair Growth Shampoo, Apivita Propoline Tonic Shampoo for Thinning Hair for Women, Art Naturals Organic Argan Oil Hair Loss Prevention Shampoo, BeanStalk Hair Loss Treatment, Beauty Facial Extreme Maximum Strength Hair Regrowth Conditioner, Beauty Facial Extreme Maximum Strength Hair Regrowth Shampoo, Bio-Hair Advanced Hair Support Formula Vitamins, Biofusion 100% All Natural Hair Loss Shampoo, Biohair-Care Biotin Hair Loss Prevention, Biotopic Bald Spot Treatment, Biotopic FolliclePLUS 27+ for Men, Biotopic FolliclePLUS 27+ for Women, Biotopic Regrowth, Bloom Krans Anti Hair Loss Shampoo for Women, Bloom Krans Full Bloom Hair Growth Vitamins for Women, Bloom Krans Full Bloom Hair Rejuvenating Conditioner, Bloom Krans Hair Growth Vitamins for Women, Bosley Revive Starter Pack, By Natural Scalp & 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Hello I gave up years ago and have been wearing hair pieces. If u live in Nj I know someone who will come to your house or you can go to his and he will make you a custom piece depending on your needs. I started the journey again because I noticed that my daughter is starting to resemble me. I want to get treAted so that I have an answer for her. I really can’t afford dr. Redmond but I am giving it a try. I will share my experience.
Triamcinolone acetonide (Kenalog), 0.1 mL diluted in sterile saline to 10 mg per mL, is injected intradermally at multiple sites within the area to a maximum dosage of 2 mL per visit.6 The main side effect, atrophy, can be minimized by not injecting too superficially and by limiting the volume per site and the frequency of injection (no more often than every four to six weeks).6 Because spontaneous resolution often occurs in patients with alopecia areata, assessing treatment response can be difficult. Intralesional steroids should be discontinued after six months if no improvement has been noted.
One of the first research studies linking alopecia with celiac disease was published in 1995. Italian doctors had noticed that several of their patients with alopecia also had celiac disease and that in one of these patients—a 14-year-old boy—the missing hair on his scalp and body completely regrew after he adopted a gluten-free diet. This boy's case and a few others prompted the doctors to screen a large group of alopecia patients for celiac disease.
Low-level laser light brushes, combs and other devices which are FDA-cleared for both men and women are available without a prescription. Although it’s not clear how the devices work, it’s thought to “stimulate the hair follicles’ energy cells to be more active,” Francis said. They’re also foolproof, telling you when and how far to move the device and they even automatically shut off.

Thank you for all your post. My daughter had extremely thick hair about eight years ago. It was so thick you could barely put it in a scrunchie. Her hair has been continuously thinning to the point that you can see through it. All the women in my family on both sides have extremely thick hair. We live in the north east and have seen several GP and a Dermatologist who act like there is nothing wrong. I work in the medical field and when I hear this I get so mad because I feel like they want to just brush of like no big deal. It is a big deal to all women no matter what ages. I have written done some of the post advise and will continue to look for an endocrinologist for her. Please keep me postes on any new developements.


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Iron supplements. Iron deficiency could be a cause of hair loss in some women . Your doctor may test your blood iron level, particularly if you're a vegetarian, have a history of anemia, or have heavy menstrual bleeding. If you do have iron deficiency, you will need to take a supplement and it may stop your hair loss. However, if your iron level is normal, taking extra iron will only cause side effects, such as stomach upset and constipation.
Family history will often tell the doctor what type of alopecia a person has. Occasionally, a punch biopsy may be necessary to determine the type of hair loss. Looking at plucked hairs under a microscope can help to tell the difference between alopecia areata and androgenic alopecia. Other tests might be done to check for autoimmune diseases like lupus that can accompany alopecia.
I’m so glad you saw my post, and wrote back. Thank you again for writing about your experience. At the time I read it, I knew that was the path I had to go. I have a treatment plan, and intend on it being a successful one (I’m so trying to go from being a negative person to being positive, it really makes a difference). I have joined the network, and hope you do as well,. Angela, is right, there is so much caring, understanding and sharing of knowledge here, that so help with the emotional part of this thing called hairloss.
Androgenetic alopecia (AGA), or male-pattern baldness, is hair thinning in an “M”-shaped pattern; hair loss occurs on the temples and crown of the head with sparing of the sides and back5 (Figure 2). This pattern reflects the distribution of androgen-sensitive follicles in most people.6 Starting at puberty, androgens shorten the anagen phase and promote follicular miniaturization, leading to vellus-like hair formation and gradual hair thinning.6
I am 20 and have been losing hair since I was 17. It is such a confidence killer. I really do miss my beautiful thick and black hair. Now my hair is thin and a bit gray as well. I only think of it sometimes…but I used to be so depressed i can barely get out of bed. Whenever I am talking to someone, I always wonder if they are looking at my hair. I am currently using Rogaine for Women…it worked one summer when I was following the regimen religiously. However, I am so bad with routines, so now I try to remember to put it on my scalp morning and night. I recently also started to take Shen Min Hir Nutrients…not sure if it works yet. Does anyone have any advice? I really want to get a hair biopsy but I don’t know how. The places I called offered scalp analysis to prepare for hair transplants…which is not something that I am considering. I also saw 2 derms, one didn’t know what was wrong and only offered Rogaine as a solution, and the other said it is androgenic alopecia. I think I might have hormonal problems, but really not that sure. My scalp is always oily and so is my skin. Before my hairloss, I had really itchy scalp. Now it’s still oily but I wash it every other day. I also dye my hair to hide the gray. Sometimes I just feel so ugly and depressed in thinking about my hair. Beautiful hair is the only thing that I want back.
Alopecia areata is not contagious.[9] It occurs more frequently in people who have affected family members, suggesting heredity may be a factor.[9] Strong evidence of genetic association with increased risk for alopecia areata was found by studying families with two or more affected members. This study identified at least four regions in the genome that are likely to contain these genes.[14] In addition, alopecia areata shares genetic risk factors with other autoimmune diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis, type 1 diabetes, and celiac disease.[3] It may be the only manifestation of celiac disease.[15][16]
I noticed yesterday that my scalp was fine until I went and worked out. I don’t know if sweat/oils has anything to do with it, but it started burning after that. Then this morning I seemed to quite a bit of hair – more than yesterday morning. I’m trying to get my weight down, hoping that will help the hair loss, but if I just lose more after exercising what am I supposed to do?!
Laser treatments are the latest frontier in staving off hair loss, and they’ll be the first choice for fans of sci-fi. As silly as they may sound, these treatments do work — the American Journal of Clinical Dermatology in 2014 reported a “statistically significant difference” in hair density with no “serious adverse events” or side effects.The bad news: Laser treatments tend to be expensive, progress is slow, and they don’t always produce stellar results.

Side effects and concerns: Minoxidil is safe, but it can have unpleasant side effects even apart from the alcohol-related skin irritation. Sometimes the new hair differs in color and texture from surrounding hair. Another risk is hypertrichosis — excessive hair growth in the wrong places, such as the cheeks or forehead. (This problem is more likely with the stronger 5% solution.) 

I’ve been to five doctors. Two of them made fun of me. Only one doctor was remotely interested in my hair loss. He prescribed propecia, mens Rogain, and told me to take 2600 ml of biotin a day. My hair is still falling out. I am almost bald. None would give me any tests to determine the cause (other than thyroid, which has been done twice). The doctors tell me it is hereditary. If they could see my family, they would know that is not true. No one that I know of in my blood line has lost their hair. I am beside myself. I barely leave the house anymore. I wish I could find some help somewhere.

Our other recommendation is the HairMax Ultima 12 LaserComb. The comb uses low-level lasers to stimulate hair follicles and modulate dihydrotestosterone (DHT) — a hormone that causes the most common type of hair loss. While it sounds like something from a sci-fi movie, the treatment works, and the dermatologists we consulted reported that their patients saw thicker and longer hair when combined with our top pick. The only catch: The comb isn’t as effective as minoxidil treatments, and at nearly $400, it’s a much bigger investment. Still, it’s the best option if you’re looking for a non-invasive, non-chemical treatment.
One of the most significant concerns for patients following a diagnosis of cancer is the side effect of losing their hair. For many, especially for those who have experienced a full, thick head of hair throughout their lifetime, the thought of losing it can be devastating. Chemotherapy treatment owes its effectiveness to a variety of powerful medications which are designed to quickly attack the compromised, cancerous cells. Unfortunately, in addition to treating cancer, the medications also attack the roots of your hair. This can cause the hair to fall out very quickly, even in large clumps, or gradually over time. Some of the most common medications leading to hair loss include:
It is perfectly normal for people to shed 50 to 100 hairs per day. This generally doesn't cause noticeable thinning of scalp hair because new hair is growing in at the same time that hair is shedding. However, hair loss occurs when this hair growth cycle and shedding is disrupted or when the hair follicle becomes destroyed and replaced with scar tissue. Female pattern hair loss (androgenetic alopecia) is the most common form of hair loss in women. This occurs gradually and is caused by genetics (from either side of the family), age, and the action of a specific male hormone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT). This hormone is found in lesser amounts in women and it preys on the hair follicles, preventing them from receiving vital nutrients for proper hair follicle growth, leading to the hairs shrinking, and resulting in a shorter lifespan. Interestingly, DHT does not need to be elevated to generate hair loss. Estrogen, when lowered as commonly seen in menopause, creates a change in the ratio of male to female hormones, giving an edge to these male hormones. Compounded with the sensitivity of DHT to the hair follicles, heredity can affect the age at which a woman begins to lose her hair, as well as the rate of hair loss and the extent of baldness. 
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